Fred Copestake is a 2-time author and the founder of Brindis, a sales training consultancy. He has travelled around the world 14 times, visited 36 countries, and worked with over 10,000 salespeople. Throughout his journeys, Fred has learned a thing or two about modern selling and is graciously bequeathing us with his insights on this episode of The Convenience Economy podcast.
Fred's multitude of experiences have led him to be understanding of the many challenges salespeople face. On this episode, he discusses the books he has written and how they are geared to help salespeople.
His first book teaches salespeople how to develop a way more collaborative approach in dealing with those challenges. Fred's latest book, 'Hybrid Selling', explores how salespeople can use a complete approach to drive opportunities in the new world of sales. Fred discusses the certain things that salespeople need to do in order to use this complete approach and he illustrates those tasks through the 'EVOLVE' framework. The elements of this EVOLVE framework are:
His goal with this framework is to put in bits of his advice and knowledge into each of the essentials. Fred believes you must actually break stuff down into smaller parts, and deliver it in little chunks that people can implement. He has restructured sales training not only around these smaller chunks but how you can drive the implementation. A huge factor in driving the implementation is what Fred calls, 'box step'. It helps you take the information learned in training and use it properly.
Not only do they discuss insights from his books, but Fred and Greg both acknowledge the fact that there are not as many face to face meetings, or time in front of customers nowadays. They agree that, consequentially, salespeople are forced to approach sales in a different way. Fred expounds on the specific skills and tactics needed for salespeople to continue to work, despite this difference. They analyze how these changes affect the sales world and contribute to the convenience economy we have today.
Greg Dickinson: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to another action packed convenience factor podcast. Great guest today and today we're across the pond, it just goes to show that technology does work because here we are first thing in the morning or first thing in the afternoon for for Fred. So Fred, go ahead and tell my audience who you are, what you do, and kind of give them a quick little background on, on where you where you how you started your career and where you are today. Love to hear it.
Fred Copestake: Sure. So yeah, Fred Copestake, founder of Brindis, which is a sales training consultancy. And I mean, yeah, over the last 23 years, I've been around the world 14 times worked in 36 Different countries trained over 10,000 salespeople. And it's been a real honor doing that for a start. But what it what it's allowed me to do is also start to really understand what are the challenges that salespeople are facing today? I looked at those and thought, Okay, well, it's my job to help people deal with these. And so that inspired me to write my first book, selling through partnering skills, which helps people develop a way more collaborative approach to deal with that, which I wrote and all going to be well and good. And sort of build all my training around that I still do. Except sort of about three months after I launched it COVID came along. But to be fair, it's not changed anything about what I was saying, if anything is sped it up. But what I then realized is actually the challenges I was helping salespeople face which is still there, there's another level of them. So I very quickly, I'd like to put pen to paper because it sounds so romantic. But actually it was typed another book out, which has just been released, which is about hybrid selling, of how they can bring in a real mixed approach to, to keep ahead of the game, because you know, sales is changing at pace.
Greg Dickinson: Yeah. And that's how and that's how Fred and I were introduced to it through a guy named Kevin Dixon, who you guys have heard my podcast with, we built the buyer community with together Kevin and I, and Kevin introduced me to Fred and I, I gotta be honest, right? I looked at his his book, and I'm like, wow, hybrid selling. And I thought, right, because Omedym, and we do demos, and it's hybrid, as we think we talk about, you know, digital, and humans. So I immediately thought, hey, this guy wrote a book about us. And as it turned out, he didn't write a book about us. But he what he did was, was really has taken this idea that I think, is core to our conversation today, which is that, you know, there are a lot of pundits out there that are talking, oh, everything's changed, you gotta change. And yet, I think selling is the same. It's still about relationships, it's still about thought leadership is still about trust, and what Fred talks about in his in both his books, but in the last book, The hybrid selling is the fact that, that in more of this world of hybrid, right, you may not get as much face to face meetings, you may not get as much time in front of us, but so what what can you do? What skills do you need to continue to work on? So that you can sell? Right? So let's kind of start there, you know, what was the impetus of writing the book? And kind of, you know, what's your favorite part of the book? What's the part that that you were really the that you think, gosh, you know, you start off with, with with this, and it as an author myself, your journey changes, a road changes? So kind of walk me through that?
Fred Copestake: Yeah, I mean, one, as you say, it was defining hybrid, because there was lots of things being bandied around, you know, and then some people say, oh, yeah, salespeople are gonna have to work at home and with customers and on the road, and it's like, well, nothing at all has changed that it's been like that for ages. Well, then I got to work virtually. And it's like the final you defining virtual selling as hybrid, because that's got events, virtual selling already is part parcel of it. Hybrid has got way more to it, in my humble opinion. So it was just trying to capture all of those things. That as you say, it's just it's a lot of stuff that salespeople have been doing for a time. There are some modern tweaks, yes. But it's now saying, you know, what, we have to do all this stuff. Otherwise, we're not going to be as relevant to our customers in the future as we need to be and want to be. So I'm pleased that I managed to kind of structure the Evolve framework as hopefully a way of getting helping people get their head around, what are all these things we need to do? But I think I'm most proud of a little story that the story that I start with, because I hadn't having confidence in a second book, I do stuff a little bit differently. But I started off, you know, part one is this story of Harry and Larry, these two sales guys that are kind of having to go through these changes because stuff, it's so quickly and we're using storytelling as a way to get the message across first and then building out what looks like a more normal book, if you like in, in the second part. And then third part, how can people actually apply this it's all about action at the end of the day that's where people
Greg Dickinson: It's it's a great, it's a great, it's a great story. And it's kind of banter back and forth. And obviously, right there's to the bill. And if you will, and the hero of how to do that, you know, the other thing I'd like to get to interesting is so you start off with your introduction around, you know, traveling the world 14 times trained 10,000 Salespeople. If you were to go to an organization tomorrow of 100, salespeople, would you train differently are there things you're gonna, you're gonna, that you maybe five years ago, you spent a lot of time honing and making sure we will grasp versus, you know, today, is there? I mean, I think the answer is yes. Right. So I'm just thinking that how you go about doing that
Fred Copestake: Massively different, both how I will explain it massively massive, massive difference, both how I would train it and what I would train. I mean, when I was traveling, it was great. And a lot of the times it was go somewhere. And because I've sat on a plane 13 hours, and people traveled a lot for it, we'd put these big, long training courses on four or five day events, they were great fun, but it's a lot of stuff for people to take it. So I think what people shift to virtual, in fact, we had to do stuff in a different way has opened people's minds to actually breaking stuff down into smaller parts, delivering it in little chunks that people can take away and apply, implement, that's where we can really make a difference. So I've restructured training around not just these smaller chunks, but how can we drive the implementation box step fully enough is a big part of it. Yeah, because box step helps you take the information, you learn on training and use it properly. I've got a robot that you can talk to for coaching daily, we've kind of drive the activity with a real life account through training to make this stuff pay for itself. So the format of the training is different. And also, you know, since I've started to understand partnering skills better, and using PQ at the core, and sort of building out a way of helping people be more collaborative in their approach and actually tell them how to actually be more collaborative. But so it's applying these partnering skills into to develop your mindset, the contract, the framework, the content, I mean, everything is a big, big difference to what I did. But yeah,
Greg Dickinson: We can peel that back. And I mean, I think you know what, you know, the reason I went down that path and asked that question, right? It's, I think, you know, what you come across, and what you're advocating is the same as how we think we, Omedym think about the buyer, right? That used to be you had, you know, hey, it wasn't uncommon to do a three hour presentation of 42 slides sales deck, and let me tell you about my logos and where we're from, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, a 90 minute scripted, you know, intense demo, and I'll tell you what, you know, I did those, I did those. And now you're not doing anymore of those, right? That the we have a customer that calls them snackable people want they have a question, they want the answer, and they don't want to wait 90 minutes hoping you answer their question. They want to get it and go on. Right. And I think what you have uncovered is if a trainer approaches a sales organization says listen, here's our five day agenda. You know, your attendance just went to zero. I mean, because, you know, so so when you talk about that, and you let's peel that back a little bit, what, how are you doing that? Right, i mean How are you? You know, if you are going to an organization, and again, we're using the big fishes, 100 people? Are you doing it, you know, an hour here an hour there? Are you doing it? You know, I mean, apply that because I know you get the partner skills, you have the hybrid selling, there's a lot in there, right? There's a lot in there that you're advocating, teach, and train, right.
Fred Copestake: So I Excuse me, I now talk in terms of accelerators. So I sell one thing or two things, there's a hybrid selling accelerator, there's the collaborative selling accelerator, if you want to work with me, because you want to be more collaborative in the way that you approach stuff. Yeah, that's where you're going to get success in your sales. So it's formulated to be delivered in a very specific way. That was 13579. That's gonna be virtual, instructor led stuff, you've then got coming back to talk about how you're applying that you're putting your stuff into box that you've got digital, which is supporting that we've got rocky robot are all those things around it. And that is how it is run. That's not up for discussion. And this might sound a bit arrogant. But I want to push back against this, this training premise, which is, for me, it's about training companies trying to sell days, which is, well, Greg and I have to come in after a bit of research to understand what you're all about. You have to learn about your organization. You're gonna go and design stuff, I'm gonna go and develop it, we're gonna go and write the training for you. And all this because I think when people do that, they don't always do they're just going to do what they gonna do anyway. So now I'll just say let's just, let's just cut straight to the point. This is what we're going to deliver. There's 22 years research behind this. It's bang up to date, it'll be altered to make sure what we're doing is, is super important, but the way it's gonna be delivered is like this. Yeah. Oh, can we just do a couple more slides? Can we do that? No, you can't. We don't do that. Okay. I mean, if you want results, you've got to do the right stuff
Greg Dickinson: And Fred it's so cool, because I think what you what you're saying this organization is what we say everyday to, which is, hey, just because you did it 10 years ago, you can't do it again, they the world has changed, the way you learn is changed the way you, you retain it. And we say it to our customers about the buyer. I think if this whole idea about we got to do all this analysis and so forth, customers are smart, they know a heck of a lot more than they did you know about you and your product and your solution in there. And just like you, if you're training salespeople that have been doing it for a little bit, they don't need every morsel of training. And I think what you're what you're advocating is, you want to come in and say, Listen, maybe maybe this wouldn't work out. But you want to come in and say hey, listen to what I want to do is hone those skills not teach you how to talk. Right? And you know, when you talk about pen to paper.
Fred Copestake: Yeah, it's it absolutely was carefully picks out. So each module and the bit that we're learning, we can go into depth, we can go into huge depth, but the live stuff, this is what you can do in three hours practically. And that's what you can do. If that's all you want to do. Great. There'll be some refresher in there. Because I doubt you'd be on the course if you don't know this. But often with experienced people, they get the most out of that. They're like, Oh, yeah, okay, I remember that. They apply, and then we just take it up a level. Now if they want to go deeper, there's more stuff in the video if they want to go even deeper, you know, podcasts and references, and we can point people to go depth, but it's all about, here's the thing, take it, do it, apply it, do it with the customer. And the whole collaborative selling is about being buyer focused anyway. So what better way to apply it then work with a buyer that you want to focus on? Yeah, and drive real life through? Yeah.
Greg Dickinson: And I love the word collaboration, right? Because I think that today, right, the selling world is more about a guided selling approach, right? Again, buyer is smart. They know a lot more than they did, listen, news for your sales team, the buyer has internet to write and they can go out and do research, or they can research you and they can research your company, they can research your solutions, they can research your competitors. So when you go in, what you need to do is guide them right and you and to your point collaboration it and so let's just go.
Fred Copestake: Let me let me jump in and agree with you is that what I'm seeing more and more is why salespeople can massively add value. Hate this, it isn't your product or service. It's probably very similar to what other people sell. But it's how you sell it. If you can come along. And you can help people think differently, if you can help them understand what they need to do to get to the point where they need to be guided through their own buying process. Now, you know, some buyers absolutely understand how they need to buy something, they've got their protocols, they've got their systems, you try and change that you will wind them up. Other people go, I don't buy this stuff very often, or ever. I don't know how to do this. Well, guess what? I do sell this type this stuff regularly. Let me take you through it. Yeah, that's the value the salespersons bringing into it. It's not your systems, not your that will come into effect later. But think about what can I make doing to bring my insights perspective, get people thinking? Yeah, it's changed. I was I was training a reasoning novice sales team the other day, and it was interesting how they did have some questioning skills training, but they was all about qualification. It was like kind of bant bant basics. It's like you're all these people suitable for my attention. I'm like, okay, yes, you do have to do that. But I need you to be shifting your way of thinking that you're questioning is to help people think that's really why you're doing it. That's where you add value, and position yourself as a better salesperson. If you're working out at the same time that yeah, it's worth carrying on with these. But when you're adding that value, because a question stimulates them, they will want to talk to you more often.
Greg Dickinson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And listen, there was a published publication just came out from Gartner that said that 63% of all buyers find no difference in your website and your digital channels across five or six companies, right? They go, there's no, they're all the same in their mind, right. So what you need to do is to your point for it is a salespersons job, right, is to navigate if there's 50 lanes, like I said, the one guy this and think about it as, as the GPS is used to just take you from point A to point B now they tell you, there's traffic, police, all those things happening. And they may be going a different route, that's a salesperson job, avoiding the pitfalls, avoiding the challenges helping that buyer get from point A, which is I have a problem to your Goal B point B, which is I want to buy your solution to solve the problem, right? But too many people get caught up in the hey, my process says I have to ask these 10 questions. And then after those 10 questions, I have to do this I was on the phone with someone yesterday were like, Yeah, you know, I asked him all the time would you buy for yourself? And they say no, I wouldn't I wouldn't follow the process. Well, then why do you do it all because we have to we need to we need the data we need the MQL is the SQL. You know all that data? I think what you're trying to say is know that the world has shifted. Let's do more collaborative, collaborative.
Fred Copestake: It's funny actually, when you said this 50 lanes because my brain does words. I think in pictures, I went back, remember that old video game? Frogger? Yeah, where there was a frog, which had to cross the road, I started thinking that and actually, that's a little bit what it's like. It's like you've got across this road. And there's these trucks coming along which you're smashing with squash you if you're not careful. Now what we could, as a salesperson say, well, I'll step out and I'll have a look. And I'll tell you what to cover. We can get you across that road, and you'll not be smashed by a big truck.
Greg Dickinson: Yeah. There's no difference between you know, the, the websites and these new microsites, etc, right, you know, and we talk in terms of demos, and how do you help that buyer get the answers to their questions, and they start off with, you know, can you and later on, they asked how, but, but it's all about helping them and guiding them. And, you know, a buying cycle, right is a living, breathing thing. And there's a lot of, you know, internal work and helping that buyer out, you just said a moment ago, I used to work for a company, my company called Hypero. So we sold to compliance. And, you know, this is, you know, 50 years ago, compliance never bought software before, right? They had never bought software. So you had to help them right, you had to get them to, you know, we had to go into pyramid involved and so forth. But But boy, if he came in there with a typical, you know, approach, you would have offended them, because they're the whole, I have a compliance problem. I have no idea how to approach me to them, right? I mean, in a bad way, but to them want to make sure was a word processor, what would the did redline because their legal, right, etc. So I think you're on you're on that track. And I'm really glad to see that you've taken the gumption to go out and say what you're saying, which is what we're going to do, if you don't like it, we're not going to do it, right. Because you're not going to I'm not here to get five days worth of billable time. That's not your your matra, because your living and breathing in a hybrid world.
Fred Copestake: Well think about it. I'm going to say I can help you get better at selling, which is focusing on outcomes and results. Oh, that's excellent. Read. Right, take you five days. It's got no sense as it really when you think about it like that.
Greg Dickinson: Exactly. Well, it this has been great. I usually end all my podcasts with a question, which is what books you read today, but I'm going to change up a little bit today. Right, since I think it's obvious, you know, tell my audience was not allowed to written before written and authored books you got to there on that you've written. What's that like Fred? What's that process?
Fred Copestake: The process to write?
Greg Dickinson: What you know, you know, in one day, you said, I'm gonna read a book like Holy mackerel, how'd you get? How did you get from point A to point?
Fred Copestake: The second one was, was certainly easier, because I kind of made mistakes than the first. I mean, really, it's been very clear on who you're writing for, I think that helps a hell of a lot is knowing your audience, what problems are they got, what issues they got? What concerns what pains? What challenges? Right, that's the challenge. That's why I'm doing it. I want to alleviate that for them. I've been a salesperson they said, Yeah, because you selling concepts. So it is so okay, that I understand what the challenges are, some of the concepts are, how can I get them from there to there? How can I help them bridge that gap? Okay, well, there are certain things they're gonna need, say and do. Right? How can I make that as clear as possible to them? How can I build a framework around that? What? Okay, so EVOLVE, ie, the Evolve framework is what I use in hybrid selling, so we've got something to hang out on. So now we've got each of these elements, the essentials, virtual selling, opportunity management, leading customers, value selling, expanding the relationship, we can put in the bits into each of them that a salesperson needs to know and needs to understand and be aware of, to get better at it. So that's the kind of the thought process in pulling the content together, then, it's trying to make it interesting. Using the store using, I mean, I went for a big story at the beginning, but then it's dropping in little stories. It's like, you know, real life anecdotes, that's what's happened. practical application. And then for me, like I said, this stuff is about doing I mean the Brendan's mantra is think learned. And I'm kind of like I'm doing the thinking for you, I'm putting it in a way that should resonate with learning and I've done that for quite a bit. But you've got to do so I took the whole last section to go write this have a questionnaire in there so you can grade yourself on each of these little gap analysis and where can you benefit faster? It can then give you a bit of insight as to what can you do first to start to really move that forward. So yeah, I mean, it's it's because it's selling really because you're selling ideas. Yeah, that's how I approached it. Why second time round I needed to move fast and I want it fast but I could do it faster right got it good super last quote having discipline having discipline getting up doing it Same time, same day putting the words in every not not expecting to write it so
Greg Dickinson: When I wrote my book that's what the guy that's helping mentor each other said listen, an hour a day, two hours a day, half hour a day like putting your calendar like it's the dentist appointment, right? You're not just do it every once you get done, who cares? Just like get something done right and to your point right now Have you felt like you were much more structured than I was I kind of wandered meandered around how to go back and redo things. Last question. We're running out of time. And that is, people are gonna listen to this podcast. And I want them to go back to the office and be able to do one thing different one thing better. What is it Fred?
Fred Copestake: One thing different, it's okay. It's quite a big thing. But it's a connected me on LinkedIn on that you'll get access to doing if you go to my link or doing connect, go to my link tree, and you'll see a scorecard, a scorecard. For both collaborative and hybrid, there's two scorecards pick which one you think is gonna be most interesting to you do the questions go through it, they will ask you 35 questions, which will then give you a tailored output with this is what you need to do and how you can develop as a result. Beautiful. That's basically I've just cost myself book sales revenue. Why didn't tell the answer buy my book, that would be the obvious answer.
Greg Dickinson: One thing is we talked about Kevin Dixon, and I want him to hear this podcast and know that I call it box step because I used to call it box stop. And he got really mad at me for that. So so thank you for bringing that name up. And if Kevin's listening, send me a note. Let me know you saw this podcast Kevin. Fred, thanks for being a great participant today in the podcast. I think this was great. I love that peeling back the onion and some of the things. Congratulations on the book, and we'll talk soon.
Fred Copestake: Brilliant. Thank you, Greg. Appreciate me, Mike.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai